ÑÇÖÞAV

Intro ():

Trailblazers in research, innovators in technology, and those who simply have a good story: all make up the fabric that is ÑÇÖÞAV. We're taking on the grand challenges that face our students, graduates; and higher education is our mission and our passion. Hosted by Mason President Gregory Washington, this is the Access to Excellence podcast.

President Gregory Washington ():

10 years ago, Mason Korea opened its doors at the Incheon Global Campus in Songdo, South Korea. Now the campus offers degrees in six undergraduate and two graduate disciplines to students literally from around the world. To recognize this anniversary, I'm joined by campus Dean Robert Matz and associate professor Gyu Tag Lee. Dean Matz has served as the campus dean of Mason Korea since 2019. Under his leadership Mason Korea enrollment grew by an average annual rate of 12%. Additionally, he worked with faculty to establish an enhanced governance structure and he established an Industry-University collaboration foundation--the South Korean corollary to a US Office of Sponsored Programs. Associate professor of global affairs Gyu Tag Lee, who received his doctorate in cultural studies from George Mason in 2013, has been teaching at Mason Korea since 2014. He is one of the most foremost experts in the world on Korean pop music, colloquially known as K-pop, and is a committee member of the Korean Music Awards. Robert, Gyu Tag, welcome to the show.

Robert Matz ():

Thank you. Glad to be here.

Gyu Tag Lee ():

Thank you.

President Gregory Washington ():

So let's talk a little bit about Mason Korea and where it is. I know I gave a brief description early on, but describe the setup of the Mason Korea campus and its connection to the Incheon Global Campus.

Robert Matz ():

Sure. So Songdo where the Incheon Global Campus is located is about 25 miles from Seoul and very close to the Incheon airport, just a 20, 30 minute drive. So it's an excellent location and we are on one of these global campus hubs, which we share with three other branch campuses of US and European universities. So there are four of us together here. At Mason Korea, we offer a full range of general ed courses, the Mason Core, six majors, two graduate programs, and we have about a thousand students. For our undergraduates, it is a three-one program, meaning they spend three years on this campus and one year on the Fairfax campus in the US or on one of our other US campuses. In terms of how we fit with Songdo, Songdo is one of the three districts that are the Incheon Free Economic Zone and these are zones that seek to promote international business. We support international businesses and the general internationalization of the Songdo area.

President Gregory Washington ():

Outstanding. So what parts of the Mason Korea experience can students expect or what part of the George Mason experience can students expect when they attend Mason Korea?

Robert Matz ():

So one of the things we're most proud of is that they can expect just about every aspect of the Mason experience. When people from George Mason come up to Mason Korea, one of the things they often comment on is how much it feels like they're on one of our US campuses. It's not only that courses are the same, curricula are the same, but we really try to infuse Mason Korea with the same cultural values, the same spirit that we find at Mason. So very much will seem familiar. There are some differences. We are smaller, so we do not have the range of majors or courses that the home campus has. And that's one of the nice things about students being able to spend a year at the home campus and take courses that we can't offer. But the other part of that small size is there's a very tight communal feel here. I, I sometimes say we're sort of also like a small liberal arts college in Ohio as well as a big research university. And of course the other difference is you're in Korea. And so for our US students, that means being in a very different country and for our Korean students, that means closer to home, which they also enjoy.

President Gregory Washington ():

Uh, and my last visit there in particular, every time I come I'm just blown away with how the campus feels like George Mason in Fairfax, you know, we even got the statue of good old George standing outside of the building there as well. But the feel of the campus is a Mason feel, which I find to be pretty phenomenal, quite honestly, how that is replicated thousands of miles away.

Robert Matz ():

It was done really intentionally by the people who've set it up. One of the features of how the campus is run here is that the dean and the associate deans all have counterparts back in Fairfax. All of our staff have counterparts back in Fairfax. They communicate with them regularly. We have a program to send staff from Mason Korea to the US campuses and we also regularly have faculty from the US campus come and teach at Mason Korea. And these features are unique to Mason Korea. The other international campuses don't necessarily do all these things and I think that's part of what helps us maintain a close identity with the home campus, which is very important to us.

President Gregory Washington ():

Well you know, you spoke of these other universities and so what is the impact on our professors and their research and having faculty from different disciplines, different institutions and quite frankly different countries all inhabit the same set of facilities?

Robert Matz ():

I think we have cross-disciplinary conversations both within the building and among faculty from other universities, from the other branch campus universities here, as well as cross-cultural conversations. But I think it'd be great to turn that over to Gyu Tag and ask him how he's found any kinds of relationships with other faculty from some of the other campuses.

Gyu Tag Lee ():

Interestingly, in one of the Korean conference that I presented--it was last year I think--there was a also professor who taught at our neighbor. And I thought it was very interesting that though we didn't have a kind of very active relationship with the faculty in other campus here at IGC, but still we could see how we felt something kind of the very similar thing, kind of the very interesting experience here where faculty from different department, different discipline and I mean even different college working together at the very same building gave us a kind of opportunity to know each other. I mean not only between different university but even among ourselves in Mason Korea that we may not get on very opportunity easily in other campuses to know the professor or faculty whose major is very different from us, which gave us kind of the interesting opportunity to know what they are doing and what kind of the uh, research interest or academic field that they are in and how can we know each other to understand each other better. And also to know each other better in very different field, which has widened my information and knowledge what is going on in other fields of academia, which is kind of very inspiration also for me to know something different from my uh, own uh, academic background.

Robert Matz ():

I'll just mention that one of the things we started to do over the last couple years is have an annual research showcase with all four universities and I think that's for students and faculty presenting their work. And I think that's been one other occasion where faculty across the universities here have been able to get to know one another.

President Gregory Washington ():

So Gyu Tag, as a George Mason alum, you've actually experienced learning and teaching on both the Fairfax campus and the Mason Korea campus. So first of all, I want you to talk a little bit about the similarities and then I want you to highlight your techniques for balancing multiple different, different and perhaps sometimes opposing cultural practices in the two countries.

Gyu Tag Lee ():

One of the similarity that I can find here in Mason Korea and the Mason Fairfax that I studied like 10 or more years ago, the biggest similarity that I found is the way how we feel the actual cultural diversity both here in Mason Korea as well as, I mean the thing that I felt in Fairfax, the cultural diversity or other kinds of diversity that I found Fairfax, which made me very surprising because I could not see this kinds of diversity when I studied here in South Korea, but when I came back to Korea and have worked here, I could see how Mason could bring this kinds of culture diversity or other kinds of diversity to here Mason Korea in Songdo, which made a big difference between let's say Korean colleges going Korean universities and American universities. So I think this is the very big opportunity for Mason Korea to introduce or to let Korean students or even Korean society know, to know how American university, of course there, there are many similarities between Korean, South Korean and American university, but how American university can show some kind of different world to Korean society as well as the Korean students.

Gyu Tag Lee ():

I have been teaching a course called K-Pop: Korean Popular Culture since 2014, even till the very last semester, which is spring 2024. And there are always student from Fairfax and student from Korea almost half and half, or sometimes more American student than Korean student in that K-pop class. Though I have been teaching some other classes also there are like American student and Korean student and I could see that although they are studying at the very same classroom together, but I could see that there, there is a kind of the barrier between them because they do not know each other, not very well. So I try to make them more mixed. For example, I give, when I give a group work, I try to make a intentionally like half American student with the half Korean student in just one group. Not only just the group discussion in the classroom but also the group work or other kind of group presentation.

Gyu Tag Lee ():

And with this kinds of opportunity they came to have a chance to know each other and they come to understand each other how they are different as well as how they are very similar as the very same age, which is their early, mostly early their twenties. Also I gave kind of the topic for them to discuss or to compare what is the difference or what is the similarity between US and South Korea. For example, when there was a COVID-19 and there is a very similar thing happened both in United States and South Korea, but government as well as the student had a very different experience about this COVID-19 in their own countries. So when they talked about this COVID-19 experience that they had in the United States and South Korea, they could get a chance to know what is the difference between US and South Korea, the cultural differences or other kinds of like political, economic, cultural context differences as well as the similarity between US and South Korea, which made them to feel more together as a Mason students.

President Gregory Washington ():

Amazing. So it's interesting: DC, Maryland, and Virginia, if you look at that metropolitan area where all three of those entities kind of meet--we, we affectionately call it the DMV--that area is home to the third largest population of Koreans in the US and about half of those residents actually reside right here in Fairfax County. So you know, and this, this question's for both of you. Talk a little bit about the benefit of having a campus in Korea connected to such a large Korea population in and around George Mason proper here in Fairfax.

Robert Matz ():

I think one of the great benefits is that, as I mentioned, our undergraduates spend a year, usually their senior year on the Fairfax campus and on the one hand there's probably no better place or certainly one of the best places to experience America is in the capital city of America. So they're getting a quintessential American experience. At the same time, when I talk to them, I always reassure them, don't worry, you're gonna have really easy access to Korean culture, to Korean foods. You can go to the local H Mart, plenty of Korean barbecue, Korean chicken, Korean people. So you'll have a little bit of the feeling and taste of home as well. And in fact, as I prepare to, to leave for the US from this position, I also feel reassured that there will still be those aspects of Korean culture. And then I think it's also great for our US students, they have Korean friends, they obviously, they know global Korean culture, but they go to Koreatowns in Annandale or Centerville. They also are surrounded by Korean culture and are interested in it. And then they say, Hey, I want more. I'll spend a semester studying in Korea.

President Gregory Washington ():

That's really cool.

Gyu Tag Lee ():

I mean yes, uh, that's true. So just like Robert mentioned since there is a big Korean community in Fairfax or DC or Maryland, uh, Washington DC Metropolitan area, many Fairfax student coming to Mason Korea to study. They already know much about Korean culture, including like Korean pop culture, which is very getting popular these days as well as Korean food. Or some of them already know some Korean words, languages or some very like basic words including or aannyeong-haseyo or kamsahamnida. I I I, I was very surprised when I firstly met those like Fairfax student and to see they already know much about Korean culture, but still they want to know more about it when they come to Mason Korea because they can get more direct experience visiting some interesting places or even going to K-Pop concert or going to the other experiential learning with professors or other student in our Mason Korea as one of the part of our program, which also give them more opportunity to know even better about Korean culture that they already knew some of it.

Robert Matz ():

And I would just add some of them come with much more Korean than that. We had a student come from the Northern Virginia area who pretty much taught herself, while she was in high school, Korean over by YouTube. And in her first semester I think won our international business districts contest for the best foreign speaker of Korean.

President Gregory Washington ():

Outstanding.

Robert Matz ():

Yeah, her accent is, for those of us who struggle, is is remarkable. Really good.

President Gregory Washington ():

So the US State Department classifies Korean as a category four language, which means it's essentially the highest level. They estimate that it will take a native English speaker 88 weeks or 2200 classroom hours to reach professional working proficiency. This kind of dovetails directly into the conversation, uh, Dean Matz, you just brought forward and given the fact that I still believe that it, I know it used to be the case, but I still believe that George Mason offers the only Korean language program in Virginia, if I'm not mistaken. How do you both compare Mason Korea and George Mason's Korean language and culture? How do you compare those two in helping students gain professional working proficiency?

Robert Matz ():

When George Mason language students come up, they have a range of Korean courses they can take here at Mason Korea, but they also get to practice their Korean in the community and that certainly helps them. Although because we're an international business district, they actually have to work at it. There's a lot of English here. They gotta be kind of bold and say, no, I wanna talk to you in Korean because otherwise people will speak with them in English. The other way they get that proficiency outside the class is we have an internship program for students to work in jobs where they have to use Korean. So for example, some of these are office positions within Mason Korea where translation is required and so they will do some of the translation for us.

President Gregory Washington ():

So Robert, you've been learning Korean as well, if, if our conversations yield anything, so what is it like to be back in the classroom as a student and as a professor?

Robert Matz ():

I really loved it. I became a professor because I loved being a student and that love never really goes away. We talk about the commitment to lifelong learning at Mason and I really believe in it. One of the things when I am giving advice to students at a convocation speech or something, I I tell them to try and learn everything. Don't think of some things as requirements. You just never know where you'll use something you learned. And also that just learning how to learn is a great thing. So I surprise myself when I'm in the Korean classroom. I feel like I'm a 21-year-old student again. Uh, although I don't think I have the plastic brain of a 21-year-old. But, uh, but I very much enjoy it.

President Gregory Washington ():

Okay, so spill the beans: what, what are we talking about grade wise? How did you do?

Robert Matz ():

I got a C plus.

President Gregory Washington ():

Really?

Robert Matz ():

Really?

President Gregory Washington ():

Wow.

Robert Matz ():

Yeah. Um,

President Gregory Washington ():

It must have been, it must have been a pretty hard course.

Robert Matz ():

Uh, I understand that Korean is a category four language

President Gregory Washington ():

<laugh>

Robert Matz ():

And it was, and I am gonna retake it when I come back to the US I will retake that course, but you know, I enjoy it.

President Gregory Washington ():

Do you feel that you are proficient enough to get around the community and you know, and get yourself out of an emergency situation if you had to utilize basic services and the like?

Robert Matz ():

I definitely feel more competent in Korean than even a couple of years ago. So things are a little easier. I understand signs a little better. I can usually explain to people what I want in a very basic Korean, uh, so it helps. But really I'm learning Korean because I love the culture, I love language. So that's really what pulls me to it.

President Gregory Washington ():

So this

Robert Matz ():

If, if my life depended on it, I might be in trouble.

President Gregory Washington ():

<laugh>, I hear you. If your life depended on it, you'd be surprised how much you knew. So according to the Modern Language Association latest census: enrollment in courses other than English dropped by 16.6% overall between 2016 and 2020. One of the very few exceptions to this is Korean, where enrollments grew by 38.3% from 2016 to 2021. And that now puts Korea in the top 10 relative to language enrollment. Some of this growth is attributed to the growth and a popularity of Korean pop music or K-pop among American students. So Gyu Tag, as a K-pop expert, what do you see as the appeal of K-pop music among American students?

Gyu Tag Lee ():

As I've been teaching K-pop related courses for several years and there have been many like US students taking that course, we had um, many opportunity to discuss what makes them to fall in love with K-pop because most of them decided to come to Mason Korea to study because they were already K-pop fans. So, uh, I could see based on their own opinion as well as like my own analysis, I could see that there are two strengths for K-pop to be popularized among US student as well as like global audience. One is the thing which can be considered as the hybrid, uh, character of K-pop, which means that K-pop is very kind of global pop music, but still it is very local, which means that K-pop has some kind of like general or universal characters that could appeal to wider global audience, but still it is different from let's say American pop music or other kinds of global pop music because still it's very Korean or still it is very local.

Gyu Tag Lee ():

So when we listen to K-pop music, I believe all of you have listened at least one K-pop song, maybe Gangnam Style or others. But you could see that it is not very Korean traditional or ethnic music that you might expect before listening to K-pop actually it. Which means that it is actually a part of global pop music, which is not a very ethnic traditional one. But it does not mean that it is only the very, let's say copycat or imitation of American pop music because it has strong Korean characters including Korean lyrics or some kind of very melody lines, very Korean type or the way how it is represented by their musician. Usually call this K-pop idols with their like choreography with the way how they perform on the stage or with the way how they show their own style in visual or audio image, which makes it a bit different from American pop music or other kinds of global pop music.

Gyu Tag Lee ():

So it is very similar quite but not exactly the same with the American pop music, which could appeal to US audience as well as global audience. And the other thing that I can find is that K-pop is something like very fan made participatory culture or music, which means that it was not made by industry only or it was not made by government plan, but made by fans active choice that some of them found K-pop on YouTube or other kinds of social media as a way of like watching music video or other kinds of parody video. And they found it very interesting. Then it became very viral with all those audiences who accidentally found K-pop very interesting. So it think kind of the word of mouth became kind of very stronger mostly by fans power to become a global phenomenon that also could attract US student coming to our campus to study to and to know more about K-pop but also the other Korean culture, which means that K-pop is now becoming a kind of gateway for them to introduce other Korean culture including language history, food, et cetera.

President Gregory Washington ():

How, how would you classify the music? Like if you were to take the US equivalent in say K-pop is like blank music in America, how would you define it?

Gyu Tag Lee ():

I think that K-pop is very similar in some respect kind of--there's a very big similarity between K-pop and I should say Latin pop. I mean it is very local kind of thing. When you listen to Latin pop sound, you could see wow it is very Latin with this lyrics with the musical style, but it does not mean that it cannot be a part of US music. So K-pop is very, that kind of music. It is very local Korean pop music, but still it is not very different from American things. So if I say in one word, blah blah music and I could see that K-pop is very hybridized, global pop music that could appeal to USA audience as well as global audience.

President Gregory Washington ():

You know, it's interesting but I see it, it has some elements of Korean culture as you highlighted, but if you really, you know, kind of close your eyes and don't think about the words, the rhythm, the beat, it's pop music.

Gyu Tag Lee ():

Yes, that's true. And one thing I would like to also focus is that K-pop has been very much influenced by African American music such as R&B, hip-hop or soul music. So one of our George Mason faculty, Crystal Anderson actually wrote a book about how K-pop has been very influenced by African American pop music. The book title that she wrote was Soul in Seoul. I think it was always very interesting because when we listen to K-pop, just like you mentioned Dr. Washington, it is very pop music but especially I can see big influence of African American music styles such as R&B, hip-hop or soul in K-pop, which is very interesting then, which makes us to see how K-pop has been a kind of the playground for Korean or other global audience to see local American and other kinds of global pop music all blended together.

President Gregory Washington ():

Yeah, I mean you, you're absolutely right. People don't realize that, you know, American pop music has strong connection as it roots to soul and and R&B music as well. So all of those pieces are kind of coming together in a very unique way in K-pop. While I was there, I was there not too long ago as you know, I think it was uh, about a week now I've been back. But while I was there, something unique was going on in pop music there in Korea that we don't experience here in the US and that is that a number of its male pop stars, you know, had to go off and serve in a military and had compulsory uh, military service. And I think K-pop star Jin completed his military service and was actually just completed it last week or about that time and was actually getting reintegrated back into the music. Is that a phenomenon that you're seeing?

Gyu Tag Lee ():

It actually shows the characteristics of K-pop as being local, which means that all those: Yes, just like you mentioned, Dr. Washington, all Korean males who are in their 20 have to join the military service as a mandatory service. And even the very famous global pop star cannot be an exception. So I could see how they are very Korean, which means that it is very Korean culture, though the music or other kind of thing is very global or American influence or global influence pop music. So it cannot be fully separated from Korean cultural or social context.

President Gregory Washington ():

So Robert, you've often said that it's important to distinguish between globalization as Americanization and globalization in its ideal form, right? You see it as a two-way exchange and learning experience. How does Mason Korea embody the globalization ideal of a two-way street?

Robert Matz ():

Oh, I think it really does. And we've been talking about that. The students who come from the US, on the one hand, part of the reason they're coming is because of the outflow of Korean culture worldwide as part of the processes of globalization including to the US. And so when they come they are even more wanting to learn about Korean life, Korean culture, and they see aspects of the Korean state, how Koreans govern themselves. That is a learning experience for them. I think a really important learning experience. And that's part of being global Mason, that they are seeing this other world. At the same time, our Korean or other international students are learning about the US through some of the ways we teach, through the content of what we teach. So it really is a two-way street. And I remember the international business district, the International Free Economic Zone rather signed an MOU with all of the IGC universities, the ancient global campus universities and some other organizations within Incheon clearing the, IFEZ as a multilingual city, a dual language city, English and Korean.

Robert Matz ():

And within Incheon, the broader area that the, if a district is located, there was some concern about this, there was maybe a worry that people would have to learn English or that things would become Americanized. And one of the things I really believe is that as IFEZ and Songdo, Incheon opens itself up more to uh, the US to our US students coming over here, they're coming over really wanting to learn Korean. One of the great things, uh, I think one of the really, going back to what it's like being a student in Korean classes here, of course I'm not with the Korean students who don't need to take these classes. I'm with the US students who come over and it's just wonderful seeing their passion to learn Korean. And quite remarkable too because you know, Korean is spoken by, there are 51 million Korean citizens roughly. It's not a worldwide language in the way say Chinese is or Russian, but here are all these students from the US who are really sitting down trying to learn this quite difficult language. And I think that's part of the two way street.

President Gregory Washington ():

Understood, understood. So I think this connects directly to the IGC or the Incheon global campus, 'cause one of the goals of the IGC is to nurture the next generation of global leaders in education, economics, industry, culture and the arts. So how do you feel that Mason's presence in South Korea contributes to this goal?

Robert Matz ():

I think in a couple ways. First, there's knowledge exchange as we, uh, seek to leverage US expertise both here and from the US campuses in the service of Korean industry and government. But I think even more profoundly, we're doing it through our educational programs and we are really helping to create students who are global leaders, who are multilingual and multicultural. They have multicultural competencies and that's, as Korea again continues to want to be very international. They want students trained who can move across cultures. And that's one of the things we're doing here. And I, and I've talked about the passion of our US students to learn Korean, but I'm also just in awe every day of our Korean students who are doing a full college curriculum in their second language and doing it very well.

President Gregory Washington ():

So, you know, this is interesting you know, we always talk about how these cultures intermix and we talk about the popularity of K-pop on a global scale, but Gyu Tag, how is it actually perceived in Korea and how does that connect to this whole goal of Mason contributing to culture and the arts as, as expressed, uh, by the IGC

Gyu Tag Lee ():

When firstly K-pop became internationally known or internationally popular? It was firstly in East Asia in late 1990 or early 2000 then outside East Asia since the early 2010, especially the big hit, after the big hit of Gangnam Style. Interestingly, not many Korean people actually believed that Korean culture, including K-pop and other kinds of Korean culture or Korea itself, could be recognized by, internationally, by people living outside East Asia. It was very first time for Korea to be actually a part of the big global, although it has been a part of big global, but still South Korean people themselves did not really feel that they are actually the part of big global world. But when K-pop has become popular in United States, in Latin America or in Europe or other parts of the world, Korean people can see how Korean culture can appeal to the wider global audience and how Korean as a country including their language, their history and other things can be the very thing that could draw attention from the international or other like other countries or outside Korea itself.

Gyu Tag Lee ():

And Mason Korea can be some kind of the very example how Korea could accept the culture or the system which is not their own, but try to learn something from the American university, American education system, or other kind of American culture and to blend or to hybridize with this local context to make something new or create something new, which has both characteristics, which is the very advantage of American thing, the advantage of Korean thing that could be very creative advantage that had not existed before. So K-pop and Mason Korea has a very similar character that they can create something based on two different culture but making something similar but still very different thing that has not been expected by anyone.

President Gregory Washington ():

You know, it's changing and it's expanding and scaling way beyond K-pop. Right? When I was in Korea and we were talking to Korean leadership there they not only talked about K-pop, but they also talked about K-food, they also talked about K-culture. Right? And so you're seeing this expansion and scaling of all things Korea into the global diaspora. What, what are your thoughts on that?

Gyu Tag Lee ():

I think it was very interesting, just like I mentioned a bit earlier, of course it was K-pop first, but when global audience including like American audience came to know about K-pop and came to fall in love with K-pop, then many of them try to find some other Korean thing, which means that K-pop is only the very gateway for them to know more about Korean culture. Just like you mentioned Dr. Washington such as Korean food or other Korean history as other Korean culture. For example, Netflix series, Squid Game, which is kind of this series globally popular like a couple of years ago was a very interesting, uh, opportunity for global audience. Not only to know about Korean TV series, but also to know more about Korean culture that was described in the series such as Korean traditional games, even other kinds of everyday food that was not introduced to international audience.

Gyu Tag Lee ():

But now they come to know more about Korean culture by those things. And when even they come to have interest in Korea, then they also try to visit Korea to see what is actually going on. Not only about tasting the food, the actual ethnic Korean food in Korea, but also to know more about Korean culture, Korean history, Korean language. So I think it is very interesting thing that K-pop or other kinds of Korean pop culture is showing the very diversity of Korean culture or the other attractiveness of Korean culture that is also working well on international audience that makes also South Korea as a part of the global world that was not expected by Korean themselves.

Robert Matz ():

I would just add that when students come, they can enjoy the food that they've gotten a version of back in the US. They also experience things that you can't experience on Netflix or at your local Korean restaurant. For example, the way space is organized in Korea, because Korea is a small country relative to its population, there's much more public space. There aren't many private yards the way we have in the US but there are beautiful parks. And Korea is also a very safe country. Parks do not close at sunset as often parks in the US do, but rather they light up at night and there's this wonderful kind of festive feeling. It's a real experience that you can only get by being here or some parts, but you can only get by being here.

President Gregory Washington ():

Well Robert, as we start to wrap up here, what have you learned from your time as campus dean that you hope to bring back to the Fairfax campus?

Robert Matz ():

I would say, first of all, I've also brought a lot that I learned in Fairfax to Korea. I very much value the time that I, I worked in the US but I think what I learned here even more is the need to take risks and keep going. We're small and we have to grow and we, it's very complex. Sometimes you just gotta say, yeah, we're gonna try that and if it doesn't work exactly right the first time, we'll figure it out on the second pass because you gotta be nimble here. And so I, I think I've gotten even a little more confidence to just go ahead and do stuff.

President Gregory Washington ():

Outstanding. Outstanding. So Gyu Tag, what could the United States learn from South Korea regarding educational policy, culture and music?

Gyu Tag Lee ():

I mean, first of all, if there is something that US could learn from Mason Korea and Korean education or Korean society, it could be something like--of course I know that America is a country of cultural diversity and just like I mentioned, is this the very strength that Mason Korea has provided to Korean student who did not have much experience about this kind of cultural diversity. But still, I could see when US campus, our Mason actually opened their campus here in Songdo, there are a lot of things that US university, even the university with diversity, Mason did not know much about Korea itself. Although there are many Koreans or Korean Americans who have studied Mason, including myself, who was an alum of the George Mason. So it could be a great opportunity for US or US education to know about what is the actual diversity that could be a part of US education system that they could learn here from local Korean context and how could they embrace all kinds of Korean students or other kinds of international students to make them as one altogether.

Gyu Tag Lee ():

So I think it will be a great experience for US university to make these kinds of altogether university outside US setting and the music. I mean it is very interesting that these days when I see the newly debuted K-pop band, there are some musicians, members of the newly debuted K-pop band who is not Korean, who is not East Asian, but even like US people, including with the very diverse ethnic backgrounds including African American, Hispanic, East Asian, or Indian American, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So I think it is very interesting that although K-pop began as a Korean music with all Korean musicians, now it's actually getting really global with people with diverse backgrounds. So K-pop can be actual real global music with all kinds of diversity, still maintaining some kind of Korean cultural aspect, which could be the very future of K-pop thing, or which could be the thing that can show how the actual globalization can be achieved to other country, including United States.

President Gregory Washington ():

So Robert, as we start to pull all of this together, right now we have an increasing number of American universities who are partnering with Korean campuses, an increasing numbers of American students who are now studying abroad in Korea. So how is the US higher education system influencing South Korea's higher education system and what do you think is the path forward?

Robert Matz ():

So that was one of the reasons that Mason Korea and the other IGC universities were established to provide a model, a different kind of model for education. So part of it is, you know, the way that we educate more dialogic and more participatory than Korean universities. But the other part is along the lines that Gyu Tag was talking about, that we really emphasize diversity. And that's something that Korea is very much grappling with right now, just as we are in a different way in the US trying to imagine what a multicultural Korea looks like and how to integrate immigrants into Korean society. And I think in the end, even more than pedagogy, when the Korean government like the Korean, the Incheon, education department looks to us, they're interested in what we say about pedagogy, but they're really, I think even more interested in how to create a multicultural society.

Robert Matz ():

So that I think is one of the values or characteristics that we are bringing to Korea that Koreans are looking at. Well, I was just gonna say also, when I think about what we have to learn from the Korean educational system, Korea is a great place to be a professor. The value of education in Korea is really high. I think they have the highest or one of the highest percentages of college educated population in the world. And to be a professor in Korea is to be really respected and learning is really respected. You know, I think that that's a model for us.

President Gregory Washington ():

Outstanding. Outstanding. So where do you hope to see Mason Korea in 10 years? I'm gonna ask it from you and I'm gonna ask it of Gyu Tag as we wrap up.

Robert Matz ():

I hope in 10 years that we will go from a thousand to 2000 students also, that we will increase the number of students from the US doing study abroad here. Of course, increasing that number of students means some new programs. And I think academic programs, I think we especially want to add some academic programs that relate very well to some of the target industries in Incheon, for example, in the biosciences and in information sciences. And also there for expanding our relationships with Incheon and Korean industry and organizations. And I hope that we continue to have this close relationship between Mason Korea campus and the US campus, including faculty continuing to come over from the US campus. And I hope when I retire, whoever is running the show here will have me aboard to teach them English courses.

President Gregory Washington ():

<laugh>. Outstanding, outstanding. Gyu Tag?

Gyu Tag Lee ():

Yes. In 10 years, I mean actually Robert mentioned that Mason Korea has worked something like liberal arts colleges and I really like that characteristics. But still, I also hope that in 10 years there will be more graduate school here in Mason Korea because graduate school is always very necessary for more researchers, creative researchers. Of course we have doing our researches with our best effort, but graduate school could be the thing that we also can make our Mason Korea not only as a, I mean very academic college, but also as a research institute. And the other thing I would like to say about Mason Korea in 10 years is that Mason Korea could be the hub for study of East Asia and East Asian culture and society, even politics and other economy as well. Because South Korea is a great geographical location between China and Japan. But what also we can see East Asia and all part of Asia, the very broad uh, perspective, which could be our advantage to make Mason Korea as a part of like study hub of like East Asian studies. So I hope that in 10 years, Mason Korea could work as a kind of hub for East Asian studies as well.

President Gregory Washington ():

Well, this is outstanding, outstanding. I hope both outcomes come to fruition.

President Gregory Washington ():

Well, that's about all the time we have. I want to thank you both for joining me and thank you Robert for your five years of dedicated service to Mason Korea.

Robert Matz ():

Been a pleasure.

President Gregory Washington ():

And cheers to both of you for 10 groundbreaking years of Mason Korea and we hope to see many more in the years to come. So I am Mason President Gregory Washington. Thank you all for listening and tune in next time for more conversations that show why we are all together different.

Outro ():

If you like what you heard on this podcast, go to podcast.gmu.edu for more of Gregory Washington's conversations with the thought leaders, experts, and educators who take on the grand challenges facing our students, graduates, and higher education. That's podcast.gmu.edu.